heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

didn't i read a comment in the paper from a member of this group recently? i believe there was some discussion because of the group's beliefs and composition. maybe someone took it upon themselves to go a litle farther than simple discussion. it is a shame that this sign was stolen, not just for the group, but for the community.

December 6, 2009 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

i found the discussion, which became quite heated.... it was on dec. 2.

http://stjoenews.net/news/2009/dec/02...

people, you may not agree with the group mentioned, but stealing a sign set up in krug park is NOT acceptable. this is simple Theft, and dimishes everyone.

December 6, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Dude says...

Maybe it's cause that skeptic in the other news story calling people bigots. LOL

December 6, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

WhoisJohnGalt says...

Skeptic Society? Stolen? I don't believe it! ;)

December 6, 2009 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Fantome says...

What better way to further your cause than to become the martyr.

December 6, 2009 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Agent_Provocateur says...

LOL @ WIJG

@ Fantome,
Leave it to a Muslim to bring martyrs into the mix.

December 6, 2009 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

seriously, fantome, your rights have been called into question here solely on the basis of your muslim faith , and have been defended. am i reading that you are now accusing this group of stealing their own sign?

December 6, 2009 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

TrappinFool says...

Sure looks like what he said to me!

December 6, 2009 at 10:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Fantome says...

Defended??????? Just look at the post above yours. Besides heritage I am just stating the obvious. Its not like they would have gone to the extreme that some RADICAL Muslims. I do agree that it was wrong if someone ACTUALLY stole the sign. But then again you don't see any signs from The Islamic Center of Greater St. Joseph in the holiday park do you. I recognize another faith and feel that placing a sign that leads to a website that denotes another faith or outright attacks the faith is wrong.

(The caps were merely to point out the words and do not denote shouting if there were someway to italicize the word I would.)

December 6, 2009 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

so, fantome, you are acusing the skeptics of sensationalizing their cause by taking their own sign? am i getting this right?

for the record, i have never made a nasty comment about your faith, and have gone to the mat on the building of the long over due mosque here in st joseph.

December 6, 2009 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Agent_Provocateur says...

Since I'm not running for public office (bound by political correctness) and this is an opinion forum I'll put my 2 cents in.
This group meets under the guise of free thinking, intellectual discussing, not bound by cumbersome biblical rules, progressive, modern highbrowed citizens. I say poppycock! I suspect many of these people are social deviants or perhaps rebelling against organized religion (gays or people molested by a catholic priest as a child). What joy they must have to come together and perpetuate the illusion that there is no God and they can keep on with their deviant lifestyle. This has been going on in some form forever.
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"--Gen 3-1

December 6, 2009 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

you caught me, agent, i am pandering to all those thousands of muslim votes here in st joseph.

December 6, 2009 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Digsy says...

Fantome, I don't think you see the point of their group yet, though I appreciate your support. So that everyone can understand: The point is to "think freely" without the bounds of a religious pretext. Not to slander faith. When someone doubting faith calls someone a bigot for attempting to further a ban on gay rights based on their own religious beliefs, for instance, it is the person pushing their agenda who is the focus. Not the faith alone. I have nothing but good things to say about someone who believes fiercley but does not try to demean others. Dogma only applies when you believe in it, and I don't.

December 6, 2009 at 12:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Digsy says...

Agent. Wow. What an in-depth view into your, well, depth. So every child who has been molested by a priest is by nature a "social deviant" and has lost their faith? Gay people don't believe in god? That's equivalent to me saying every christian is a bigot and hatemonger.
I shouldn't need to point out that the grouping of people you refer to regularly volunteer in your community to try and help those who are less fortunate. Devious indeed.
Let me help you here, most people don't understand the meaning of the term "social deviant" so here is the wikipedia definition of the term:
Deviance in a sociological context describes actions or behaviours that violate cultural norms including formally-enacted rules (e.g., crime) as well as informal violations of social norms (e.g., nose-picking).
As far as we know, only one deviant has been insofar associated with this group, and that unidentified person seems to lean towards the same ideals as you. Keep in mind perspective, to a community of atheists, you are the deviant.

December 6, 2009 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dcarr1 says...

As the token Skeptic for our community, I want to thank those of you who support our right to be in the public square. Our group is meeting today at 2:30 at the Rolling Hills Library on the Belt. We are going to try to put up another sign in the week to come. We will need community support to keep thieves from stealing it again. However, we will be taking some extra precautions besides the park security. If someone tries to steal our sign again, they won't make it out of the park. We will speak and think freely, and on public property in this country we will not be censored.

December 6, 2009 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Fantome says...

Heritage I don't believe I attacked you or said you weren't a Muslim supporter although I do sense a bit of PC pandering in almost every post you make. I was merely pointing out the fact that what better way to further your cause than perpetuate something like this. The Israelis have been doing it to the Palestinians for years.

December 6, 2009 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

deerslayer1967 says...

"If someone tries to steal our sign again, they won't make it out of the park"....are they planning on installing an IED? some sort of explosive device? are they going to be standing at the exit with AK-47's?

stealing anything is wrong...but why put a sign in front of a historical place for Christmas worship? it's as if you want a confrontation, and you got it evidently. Why not put your signs on the Belt? There is plenty of advertising there.

Thanks to Fantome for understanding that each faith needs to have their own "space". that is the great thing about our country.

MM1967 exactly, why can't we have our Christmas...and that is spelled with a Capital "C"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn...

December 6, 2009 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Agent_Provocateur says...

Digsy,
****So every child who has been molested by a priest is by nature a "social deviant" and has lost their faith****

I would guess that would be one way rattle ones faith.
****Gay people don't believe in god?****

Many churches don't welcome gays in their leadership positions so I would guess they would be inclined to cling to a group which would accept their social deviant lifestyle. (under the wiki definition of informal social norms)
Personally I feel your group is irrelevant as I'm sure you feel the same about churches.
Best of luck with your free thinking and hopefully that nose picker will get the message:)

December 6, 2009 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

fantome, that is really funny!!! i am possibly the least politically correct person you may ever meet ( or not meet) .

if "politically correct" is a synonym for "tolerant" then i hope i am growing older and wiser in that aspect each day.

December 6, 2009 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dcarr1 says...

I understand how my comment could be misconstrued as a threat of physical harm, but it is not. I am saying that someone is going to have a very hard time getting it out of the ground.

MM and Dearslayer

I realize you think that since you call this season Christmas and Christians are the majority that everyone shares your sentiments, but they don't. The beginning of the seasonal change from Fall to Winter has been celebrated predating the Christian Religion. If you do a little homework you will also discover that Christian scholars don't believe that Jesus was born during December. This holiday is not a time for your own personal worship service in the park, it is for everyone in the community. It is a part of history that goes far beyond your personal beliefs, however irrational they may be.

After a lot of thoughtful discussion, many have expressed that someone contributing to these comments may know something about the missing sign. If so, and you are reading this you know that what has happened is a crime not just against our group but our community. You should feel obligated to come forward with information, or you have betrayed our community.

December 6, 2009 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Dude says...

It's called Christmas not winter solstice day. And having the sign say "Be good for goodness sake" points to you implying it is a religious holiday.

December 6, 2009 at 8:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CatFish_Wiskers says...

[b][i]Testing html[/i][/b]

weaksauce......

December 6, 2009 at 8:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

WhoisJohnGalt says...

Whiskers, this is a primitive site. It will not have the features you are used to. On the other hand, it is populated by primitive denizens. Therefore, we are happy. :)

December 6, 2009 at 9:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

skeptic says...

Well, I've been posting here for a long time and never realized there was a group of skeptics in St. Jo. Not that I'd want to join them, necessarily. I'm skeptical of everything.

I have a problem with their posting a sign in a public park, though. I don't think there should be a sign there supporting anyone's religious views, including an absence of belief or religion.

We have a Constitution that is supposed to govern us, and to which the laws should follow.

1st Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

ACLU v. Schundler, 520 US 1265 (1997)
On appeal from the Third Circuit Court of Appeals (104 F.3d 1435) this case was denied cert. by the Supreme Court. In response to a permanent injunction brought against Jersey City's display of a menorah and crÃche, the city officials added a wooden sled and figures depicting Santa Claus and Frosty the Snowman to the display. This attempt to secularize the display resulted in a modification to the District Court's injunction, however the Third Circuit ruled that these attempts did little to alter the religious statement being made by the city. Further, the Third Circuit held that erecting and maintaining religious displays on government property was a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. It is clear that in their decision the Court of Appeals was trying to establish a stronger holiday display rule than the Supreme Court has so far been willing to do.

December 6, 2009 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryAllison says...

Since I never saw the sign with my own eyes, I doubt it was there in the first place.

December 7, 2009 at 6:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

tydej says...

I think the sign was not intended to point towards religion with the words...I think they were saying...be good for nothing more than being good...not cause Santa or Jesus are watching...just for the sake of being good...a great message when you think about it.

December 7, 2009 at 7:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pops says...

Until the Skeptic Society is able to prove someone stole the sign, or that it even existed in the first place, I won't believe it.....
As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure there IS a Skeptic Society. I've been to the library many times, and haven't seen anyone who remotely looked like a skeptic hanging around. Seems to me the Skeptic Society, itself, is a figment of our imagination....

December 7, 2009 at 7:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_O says...

dcarr1, Most everyone knows that most likely Jesus was NOT born on Dec 25th, and IF there were a celebration of the seasonal changes before Christianity, was it on Dec. 25th ?
If not, why would anyone want their celebration co-mingled with Ours ? The only reason I can think of is to get more attention for your celebration. It only makes sense to me that ONLY Christmas items be allowed in a Christmas celebration, we don't mix Easter with flag day, and that is how it should be. All religions have the right to celebrate their holidays, and I am for that, but it should NOT be mixed with another holiday in order to get it MORE recognition.
And an Athiest community,,, my Church Alone has 4,000+ members, and that is only 1 Church out of Hundreds in our community, therefore I could not call our area an Athiest community.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

December 7, 2009 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sjskeptic says...

pops -- never having seen you, I'm skeptical that you exist. You are probably the figment of some radical's imagination. Or perhaps some unseen spirit. I'm certainly sure you have never been to the library because when we were there for a meeting you were not lurking around. To bad you weren't. You would have enjoyed meeting with us. We're all about as goofy as you are.

December 7, 2009 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

BHSGRAD says...

Nobody wants that sign in there bro. Try showing some class and respect and just let it go.

December 7, 2009 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Mr_America says...

"historical place for Christmas worship"

Do Christians worship Santa, elves, decorated trees, and candy canes???

December 7, 2009 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Paladin says...

For today's Christian, the origin of Christmas is, and should be, the birth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible. Nothing more and nothing less. However, most of what we witness on December 25th each year has absolutely nothing to do with that blessed day, which probably occurred in late summer or early fall about 2,000 years ago. In fact, most of the customs and traditions of Christmas actually pre-date the birth of Jesus, and many of them are downright deceptive in their meaning and origin. Here are a few examples:

The date of December 25th probably originated with the ancient "birthday" of the son-god, Mithra, a pagan deity whose religious influence became widespread in the Roman Empire during the first few centuries A.D. Mithra was related to the Semitic sun-god, Shamash, and his worship spread throughout Asia to Europe where he was called Deus Sol Invictus Mithras. Rome was well-known for absorbing the pagan religions and rituals of its widespread empire. As such, Rome converted this pagan legacy to a celebration of the god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god during the winter solstice period. The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.

- Obviously cut and pasted - but someone asked

December 7, 2009 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pops says...

Paladin,
No on CARES what exact date Christ was born. We have many holidays that are observed that don't coincide with the actual date involved. Whether Jesus was born on December 25th or April 23rd is totally irrelevant to the event itself.

December 7, 2009 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Paladin says...

No one cares? You're the self-proclaimed voice of everyone now? Wow - must be quite the daunting task. Were you elected into that position or is it one you've simply decided you're going to take on?

December 7, 2009 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Paladin says...

By the way - the information was in response to a direct question. I simply provided information that was requested - so someone cared.

December 7, 2009 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

BHSGRAD says...

God saves holidays to.

December 7, 2009 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ktwykc says...

Joshua 24:15 King James version. "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
I have chosen my path and it is my belief that each individual should be allowed to make their own choice.
Merry Christmas to all.

December 7, 2009 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pops says...

paladin,
Show me even ONE person who really cares exactly what day Jesus was actually born.

Any Christians out there reading these posts really care if Jesus was born on December 25th or not?

December 7, 2009 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pops says...

paladin,
What I did was poke a hole in that tired, old rhetoric that continues to be tossed around. Your response tells me I must have hit a nerve!!

December 7, 2009 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Paladin says...

Hmmm I guess we can add a degree in psychology to your long list of accomplishements since you are now psychoanalyzing my comments. You truly are a Renaissance man.

The nerve is not in the topic. Having an undergraduate degree from a Baptist university where I studied theology in depth your stunning old rhetoric of vitriol is less than threatening I can assure you.

The nerve resides in people that feel they know more, have lived more, or wish to impose their will in a medium where they act like they speak for the masses. Of this you are guilty. Even if I were a Christian you surely aren't the voice I'd want heralded. I'd want someone a little more scholarly and a little more eloquant and not someone just shooting from the hip.

December 7, 2009 at 2:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Paladin says...

It should bother Christians that the majority of the Christians in this nation do not celebrate or know the actualy date of his birth. It should bother them that religions of the past melded beliefs to fit pre-existing beliefs in order to conquer the masses and make their version of religion a little "easier to swallow" The whole premise behind this timeframe is centered around the winter solstice and the cult of Mithras. I don't expect you to know such "forbidden knowledge" since you probably shun such things as evil and label them and refuse to even listen or read for yourself. You've done been told them there things is evil and by golly....you believe it (poor English on purpose).

Christmas in reality has become commercialized. I get it - the real celebration of Christmas is Jesus lived - but unless you've chucked out the Christmas tree (a pagan symbol BTW), the Yule log (another pagan symbol), the image of Santa Clause (yup, pagan) then you too are also celebrating Christmas for the wrong reasons. I take it you will be in church all day the 25th reflecting on the real reason of the holiday and not taking part in the gift giving?

You can't pick and choose and truly call yourself devout. It's all or nothing.

December 7, 2009 at 2:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dcarr1 says...

Admittedly I'm not a Christian, but I find it interesting that someone who is could consider the reality of their savior so unimportant. Personally I care, because the truth matters. For some people dogma is more important than reality, perhaps that is the case for you.

Isn't it interesting that you are claiming this holiday apparently belongs to you and it was essentially stolen from pagan traditions? Christians have done exactly what you are accusing us of now. Using your holiday to bring attention to our own ideas. Christians subverted the pagan traditions and made them their own, but yeah it's your holiday.

My statement from the other day remains. This is a holiday for everyone, not just you. Try having a little Winter Solstice Spirit and being honest with yourself.

Happy Holidays

December 7, 2009 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

whiskey_tango says...

As a Jehovahs Witness I dont partake in the holidys. I celbrated Christmas as a child but we were never taught the meanin of it. By celabrating Christmas you are parcipitaing in a pagan celabration.

December 7, 2009 at 2:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pops says...

paladin,
I've done NONE of the things you insist I've done. I merely made a clear statement...and one I stand by. NO ONE CARES if Jesus was born on December 25th! I know lots of Christians and I know NONE of them who feel He was born on that day. To most Christians, it's unimportant as to "when" but VITALLY important that He WAS born!!

To use your logic, we could, very possibly, not celebrate His birth at all, since nearly every single day of the year is marked by SOMETHING. Groundhog Day, National Grandparent's Day, Valentine's Day, Father's Day, Halloween, and more than likely, 360 OTHER holidays and observances. Which day would you prefer?

I'm not sure why it's all that important for you to provide me with a resume' of your extensive qualifications and education. Again...I don't care. You could have enough degrees that folks refer to you as Dr. Fahrenheit, for all I care. It doesn't change the FACT that the celebration isn't about the day....it's about the Person. Personally, I celebrate His birth, and the reason He came, all year long.

whisky_tango, while I respect your beliefs, and you can certainly observe or not observe Christmas, I'd submit to you that it doesn't matter what day we celebrate the birth of the Lord....as long as we keep Him in our hearts!! Can we, at least, agree on that?

December 7, 2009 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

deerslayer1967 says...

mm1967..thanks for carrying the Merry Christmas through.

dcarr1, it's called faith...if you are right, we are both worm-food. If I'm right, and I believe I am, I will be worshipping God in heaven when my body gives up, my soul will live on and you will be somewhere else not as appealing when you experience the same thing.

paladin..you speak as a historian with no facts.

"Saturnalia is the feast with which the Romans commemorated the dedication of the temple of the god Saturn, which was on 17 December." Saturnalia was introduced around 217 BC which happens to be before the Julian calendar, which means the 17 of December means NOTHING. Here, I will paste a link for all to learn for themselves. I believe nothing I hear and only half of what I see "edgar allen poe". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

mithras...."The Mithraic Mysteries or Mysteries of Mithras (also Mithraism) was a mystery religion which became popular among the military in the Roman Empire, from the 1st to 4th centuries AD. Information on the cult is based mainly on interpretations of monuments. These depict Mithras as born from a rock and sacrificing a bull. His worshippers had a complex system of seven grades of initiation, with ritual meals."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic...

nope, don't see any similarity to Christianty...which was called a cult at one time...it all comes to faith.

dcarr1..why do you think that just because someone disagrees in this forum, there is a thief?

dcarr1.."This is a holiday for everyone, not just you. Try having a little Winter Solstice Spirit and being honest with yourself" What is your pagan religion that you want to observe for the winter solstice? If you are an atheist, you have no other reason than trying to intimidate Christians or to try to push your agenda. We won't be marginlized any longer. It's called Christmas with a capital "C".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn...

God bless you ALL!

December 7, 2009 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Paladin says...

You're gonna have to come with something better than Wikipedia dude. Most institutions with their reputations intact don't recognize it as a viable source.

December 7, 2009 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

teeter59 says...

Joshua 24:15 kjv..."And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." With all our Hearts, with all our Minds, with all our Souls. Those who do not worship God and believe that it is all a myth and believe that God does not exist, those that believe we are all nuts to believe in God, we will STILL pray for your souls, because rather you believe in God or not, does not make Him exist any the less. Every knee WILL bow, every tongue WILL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. As for the sign, let it go, it was just a sign. I agree with the poster, why put up such a sign in the mist of what we Christians celebrate as the Birth of our Lord. We all know He was not born on Dec 25th, but it is the day that the world chooses to celebrate as the rememberance of that day. The rejoicing of our King. If you don't believe don't rain on our parade. You don't have to pray with us, just be respectful while we do, maybe we are praying for you. Also..just one word about the Muslim religion. My God does NOT advocate any kind of violence at all. It is what makes Christians weary and "skeptical" of that religion. Death to infidels is a motto that is scarey since anyone who does not believe as they do is an infidel.

December 8, 2009 at 3:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

No28301016 says...

Religion: there are thousands of them, and they're twisted in a thousand ways. Those with the god of Abraham can be some of the meanest and most twisted of them all. Your petty squabbling here too is a pathetic example. Go shopping before you embarrass whatever church you think you believe is Right, and always remember that whichever one you believe in, a majority of humans disagree with you. At least try to shop responsibly when expressing your holiday spirits, and thank Aphrodite that there are skeptics.

December 8, 2009 at 8:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

c0uchtime says...

The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)

Plenty of kind, decent, caring people have no religious beliefs, and they act out of the goodness of their hearts. Conversely, plenty of people who profess to be religious, even those who worship regularly, show no particular interest in the world beyond themselves. -John Danforth, priest, ambassador, senator (b. 1936)

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. -H.L. Mencken, writer, editor, and critic (1880-1956)

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretences but your own. -Lionel Strachey, writer and translator (1864-1927)

We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins, biologist and author (b. 1941)

December 8, 2009 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pops says...

Seems to me I'm reading a LOT of religious intolerance, here......

December 8, 2009 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )